Director: Sam Peckinpah
Screenplay: Walon Green, Sam Peckinpah
Story: Walon Green, Roy N. Sickner
Music: Jerry Fielding
Cinematography: Lucien Ballard
Editing: Leo Lombardo
Pike Bishop...William Holden
Dutch Engstrom...Ernest Borgnine
Deke Thornton...Robert Ryan
Freddie Sykes...Edmond O'Brien
Lyle Gorch...Warren Oates
Tector Gorch...Ben Johnson
Angel...Jamie Sanchez
Mapache...Emilio Fernandez
Coffer...Strother Martin
T.C....L.Q. Jones
Harrigan...Albert Dekker
Crazy Lee...Bo Hopkins
Major Zamorra...Jorge Russek
Lt. Herrera...Alfonso Arau
Don Jose...Chano Urueta
Teresa...Sonia Amelio
Released 18 June 1969
Budget: $8 million
Box Office: $11 million (?)
Information: Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wild_Bunch)
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| The Wild Bunch: Tector, Lyle, Pike, Dutch. The Good Guys. |
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| The Bad Guys. (That's Coffer on the left standing and TC on the far right standing) |
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| Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid (1969): Katherine Ross and Paul Newman |
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| Shane (1953): Alan Ladd and Brandon deWilde |
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| The Grateful Dead, February 1969 |
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| Hampshire College, Amherst MA 1977 |
[...] all these years later, the movie retains its almost seductive grandeur, plunging one ever closer to the heart of darkness and chaos. It remains one of the best written and best performed American films of all time. I love the colloquial majesty of the dialogue and the intellectual gropings of the Bunch as they try to figure out what honor requires.
Judith Crist of New York Magazine had a slightly different response: "If you must see The Wild Bunch, be sure to take along a barf bag."
So:
1. What did you think? Like? Dislike? Horrified? Angered? Or whatever else your initial response was. What jumped out at you—and/or what stayed with you?
2. Who are the good guys and who are the bad guys here? Think about this before you answer. TC and Coffer make be dumb as mules and smell like them as well, but they have genuine affection for one another, not something we particular see in the Bunch as they fight among themselves. The answer should not be obvious. And why do you choose who you do?
3. Look at the pictures above, the first two from the movie, the third from another western released the same year, Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid, which made over $102 million, the fourth from the classic western Shane, the fifth of the rock group The Grateful Dead, and the last one of the campus of Hampshire College, an extremely progressive college (invent your own course of study because the school does not offer majors) founded in...1970. Why did I put them up in connection to the film we're watching? Pick one and make a logical connection to what we've seen today—how does it connect or not?
When you answer be sure to click on Comment at the bottom of the post and then use the comment box. DO NOT MAKE YOUR OWN SEPARATE POST, okay?
See you all tomorrow.
1.
ReplyDeleteThe overall violence in the movie thus far was very prominent. It was really gory — something typical of the western film genre — which definitely sticks with the viewer. I did not exactly enjoy the blood and guts, but I can understand how it affects the movie. My reaction was both disgust and awe at how the characters go about the robbery and their escape.
2.
I think neither the Wild Bunch nor the bounty hunters are good or bad. There is an unclear divide between right and wrong in this film, especially in terms of morals. The Wild Bunch steals in order to live, and does not seem to care about deaths that occur due to their actions. Similarly, the bounty hunters do not care about the deaths that occur during their pursuit of the Wild Bunch. However, the bounty hunters are on the side of the law — but the law is not necessarily morally right. Plus, Deke Thornton was part of the Wild Bunch until he got caught by Harrigan. But if I had to pick, I would say that the bounty hunters are closer to being the good guys and the Wild Bunch are closer to being the bad.
3.
Hampshire College connects to this film because the college was founded in 1970 and the film was made in 1969. The characters in the film reflect a progressive symbolism that the college has in spades. Here, it is the idea of loose morality that the characters and their gangs display that the college would most likely debate. There is a thin and unclear line between good and bad and right and wrong. The law in the film connects to this because the law may not necessarily be right or on the good side. This further connects to Hampshire College because another topic most likely discussed by this college is ethics and how the law may not be right — like in the case of segregation and how integration was happening at the time.
1. If I were to characterize the film (thus far) by one word, I would respond with “cruel.” The fight scene is obviously cruel- the Wild Bunch (are they are the ones in the uniforms? I must admit I am a bit confused about who’s who…) purposely waited until the protestors moved in front of them to open fire, aware and unconcerned that many of the marchers would inevitably be caught in the crossfire. And the ex-convict member of the town “we observe the law” group clearly calls the event a planned massacre. The actions of TC and the other gunman (is he Coffer?) as they insist that the dead bodies are their doing horrify me, only increasing the cruelty of the scene. The reactions of the children in this scene upset me the most, though. I was angered that the children were caught in this shootout as well; the camera pans to the two duos multiple times so that they are not overlooked in all of the action in the scene. However, though the four children looked somewhat upset (as is to be expected), I was also interested in their lack of movement. Unlike the adult protestors who had been caught in the fire, crouched down or fleeing away from the main road, those four children remained standing in the crowd. Perhaps they were too terrified to run away, but I also wonder if they were watching with some element of interest. The group of children that ran in at the conclusion of the shootout, pantomiming the “bang, bang” of a gun, obviously enjoyed the idea of a physical fight; it may be plausible that the four children from the fight scene did as well. The children clearly had no problem engaging in cruel acts, as seen in the opening scene as the Wild Bunch rides into town. The destruction of the scorpions by the overwhelming power of the fire ants prompted in me the same slightly nauseated reaction one has when they see a particularly gory or bloody scene (assuming that blood makes you queasy). Yes, the circle of life is responsible for the scorpions' deaths- the ants were fed, all is well, et cetera. But what so vividly upset me was the eagerness of the children, all of whom I would assume to be under ten years of age, to conduct their own junior dog/ rooster fight pit. They enjoyed the helplessness of the scorpions, sticking them further under the pile of fire ants. This depiction of such cruelty from children not only horrified me as I watched it, but has stayed with me and continues to upset me.
ReplyDelete2. I am under the impression that Westerns require there to be good/ bad guys, but I have trouble with one group explicitly classified as the “good guys” and the other as the “bad guys.” As Katya said, both sides have virtuous and torturous moments. One such scene that reminds me of this is the shooting of the wounded member of the Wild Bunch as they flee from town. If I understood correctly, the man asked for allievement of his wounds. The leader does such, killing him to end the pain, but he shoots the man before he is even able to finish his last sentence. One one hand, this is a warped, yet true, act of kindness; the man’s suffering is prevented. However, this scene is just as easily an execution. Not only is the man briefly shot, but his body is unceremoniously left behind- the only remarks the vigilante town riders have when they reach the body is a measure of how long the man has been dead, and thus, how far behind the Wild Bunch they are.
2 (cont). I agree with Hunter’s criticism that the Bunch attempted to understand honor; the members appear to challenge authority and attempt to reason out the application and meaning of just/ fair actions (should the new members receive the same cut of the steal, or should the older members be rewarded for years on the job?). However, members of the Wild Bunch just as easily used the marching protestors as human body shields when the town gunmen shot at them from the hotel’s roof. And just as the townspeople participated in this massacre, they also demonstrated affection, as explained in the prompt. If one side had to be classified as “bad,” though, I suppose I would direct this label to the town shooters. The ex-convict does appear more humane than the other men, but I find it harder to determine actions of the town group, as opposed to the Wild Bunch, that would allow them to be the “good guys.”
ReplyDelete3. The photos all surprised me; many of them did not look as I expected them to look. The photo from Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid does not scream “cowboy/ guns/ horseback/ saloon” that is so obvious in the images from The Wild Bunch. His seemingly joyous expression as he rides the bike honestly reminds me more of Mary Poppins than a Western film. Similarly, the photograph from Shane, aside from the cowboy and trademarked Western font on the hotel awning, does not necessarily suggest the level of violence seen in even the first five minutes of The Wild Bunch. In the last photograph, the Hampshire College campus appears less campus and more large forest. The school may have offered a progressive education, but not even the Paideia meadow is that large. And though I have never listened to The Grateful Dead, I would not place rock performers outside of a barn. However, the band member on the left leans back, leg crossed, on a haybale- his manner is 100% what I picture a cowboy to be (he is only missing the hat to prop over his face and block out the sun as he rests). Minus the rifes (and seemingly endless ammunition), the band members are clustered in a position similar to the cowboys from The Wild Bunch. Somehow, these two photographs connect. Though many of the artists in the photograph of The Grateful Dead do appear cowboy-like to me, the man in the rear center sticks out. His upright posture and collared shirt is unique among his band members, and his smile so vividly contrasts the slightly death stare-ish gaze of the left “cowboy” band member. Similarly, not all of the members of the Wild Bunch/ town group appear 100% cowboy either. The ex-prisoner remembered himself and the leader of the Wild Bunch out of the desert and in a nicely furnished room, laden with half-undressed mistresses. Though many of the members of the Wild Bunch and town group, along with most of the band members from The Grateful Dead, appear as cowboys, a few members stand out.
1. Overall I enjoyed the beginning part of the movie. The vulgarity of the dialect and the characters' actions is entertaining and comical. The start of the film was chaotic, and strangely hard to follow. The battle scene had so many quick cuts, that it was difficult to identify who was killing who. I think this could be partially intentional. The chaos showed how both sides were ill-prepared, and neither of them valued an objective morality.
ReplyDelete2. Although TC, Coffer, and Deke are technically on the right side of the law, I can’t call their actions justified. Their decision to ambush the bunch caused many innocent people to die. There was also immense destruction, and a clear contamination of the children of the town. The scene where the young boys are acting like they are shooting guns stood out to me, because so many innocent people had just been slaughtered only minutes prior. The Wild Bunch is not in the right; however, their actions are very similar to the bounty hunters’. They want to make a living for themselves. Pike mentions a couple of times that he just needs one more score to retire. This is not someone who is harming people for game, but rather someone trying to provide for himself.
3. The Grateful Dead began in 1965, and continued to grow through the seventies, eighties, and nineties. This band was seemingly at the forefront of counter-culture. Their progressive ideology challenged many norms of their time period-possibly part of their attraction. The Wild Bunch, aside from being in the same time period, is also challenging a societal norm. In my experience, many westerns make it very clear who the bad guys are. This film contradicts this, forcing the audience to think about those in power in a new way. It is possible that those who have the most control can abuse their strength, and be just as bad or worse than the people who have none.
1. My main thoughts about this movie initially was that I was confused. I don’t think that westerns is the genre for me, so I was not enthralled by the plot, and was confused about who is who. However, I understand why this is often considered an important movie. I appreciated the cinematography and I saw places where deeper meaning was offered, so I’m glad this isn’t a movie solely about cowboys riding around and shooting at people. Something that stayed with me was the depiction of children. The playing with scorpions and ants, pretty much subjecting scorpions to suffering for their entertainment, was likely a commentary about the kids relationship with violence. This relationship was also commented on when the children were imitating the cowboys shooting their guns. It seemed like a fun joke to them, or that they hope to be like those men in the future. This is ultimately horrifying based on the fact that many of the townspeople were murdered in the crossfire of that shoot out, and their lives were in danger too, and they don’t seem the least bit traumatized or even upset.
ReplyDelete2. I hate to answer the prompt with no answer at all, but I agree with others about how choosing a bad guy and good guy from this film is difficult. I knew going into the movie that who the bad guys were is a question, but even after viewing the beginning with the mindset trying to figure it out, I could not. Both parties are horrifying from the perspective of a girl at Paideia in 2020. I think that this good guy/bad guy phenomenon may be based on individual characters more than one entire group versus the other in this film. I think this because certain characters were more disgusting than others, on each side, and it seems that there are both horrors and possible redemptions on each side of the shootout.
3. These pictures relate to the class, I think, because they each represent two sides of American culture/society in this time. The Grateful Dead and Hampshire College, both products of this time period, are representations of counterculture and progressiveness, similar to Paideia. The picture from Shane represents the opposite in American culture and what was the norm in my opinion. I think this because westerns, and the idea of cowboys usually remind me of the more “straight” or conservative side of American society at this time. The film is obviously a western, and I think it relates more to more conservative ideas, which is primarily because it is set in the early 1900s.
1) The beginning of the movie was definitely chaotic, especially the fight scene. You can tell that the director really wanted to emphasize the battle and gore in the fight. Strangely though it wasn’t the fight really stuck with me. I don’t really understand why, but the part that left an impression on me was the very beginning. The scene where the children are suffocating, what I presume were scorpions in a termite home. It showed how the children also have this chaotic vibe to them as well. This is also shown after the mass shooting. When the children are pretending to shoot guns, when many innocent people were just killed in front of them. So far the movie is really interesting! Yet, I can’t deny a little hard to for me to follow.
ReplyDelete2) I find it hard to label one side as strictly the “good” and “bad”, as many are as well. So far in the movie at least, both the Wild Bunch and Coffer & TC have both good and bad in them. The Wild Bunch is on the side of the law, but they also risked many innocent lives on the strategy they used to catch Coffer & TC. Also, I feel like the Wild Bunch is essentially doing what Coffer & TC are. They are all just trying to to earn a living somehow. I don’t really see that much genuine care for the good of their town. Their real focus seems to be the bounty. Which will help their lives. This is what Coffer & TC are doing obviously not in the right way. So if I was forced to pick a side I’d be more inclined to say the Wild Bunch are the “good guys” and Coffer and TC are the “bad guys”.
3) I’m assuming the 2nd and 3rd pictures were posted to give us an understanding of the “early” western. If I remember correctly in class there was a mention on how westerns changed and there was a conflict with them(?) That the film we are watching is the result after the conflict. I don’t really have a clear understanding on why the last two photos of the Rock Group and the campus of Hampshire were posted, but I have an idea. Going back to our discussion in class about the time period of this film and era we are talking about. The two photos really seem to be out of the norm. I wouldn’t expect that picture when I think of a rock band at least now in days. As for the campus, that didn’t really seem like a campus to me. The picture was more of a forest.
The first 40 minutes of this film remind me of something I read in Donna’s class about the Mexican Revolution called “The Underdogs”. In this book, there are two different armies. One of which is represented as unnecessarily and brutally violent not only towards the group that they fight against but also towards civilians. The other army, the group that seemed much more humane in the beginning, ends up similarly corrupted and even intoxicated by war and violence. There are a lot of parallels between the two different groups (or armies) in the book and the film. They initially seemed very different; one group seemed good and the other bad. But, as the film and the book continues, both of the armies/ groups seem at fault as they both act brutally and violently towards others. It was very upsetting to watch the graphic brutality and the inhumane ways the groups interacted, killing one another and seemingly innocent civilians. The scene where the kids watch this gruesome violence was especially difficult to watch.
ReplyDeleteAlthough I think that both of the groups are at fault, because Pike left Deke to serve the punishment for both of their actions, Pike and his group are the bad guys. I can see that both of the groups have looted and acted violently and for that reason can both be viewed as the bad guys. Also, it seemed that when Pike and Deke worked together, they also committed crimes as Pike seemed anxious when there was a knock at the door. But, Pike betrayed Deke and left him to serve a gruesome punishment and left his ex-partner worse off, which was made clear through the difference in the quality and state of their clothing. Therefore, Pike and his group are the bad guys.
The image of the Grateful Dead is connected to the Wild Bunch. In the film, the characters spent a lot of time in nature with horses and riding horses, and the image of the Grateful Dead appears to be placed outside of a barn, where horses typically live, while surrounded by hay. Additionally, the photo of the band was taken the same year that this movie came out. Although, the film featured significant violence and chaos, which contrasts the Grateful Dead’s music that is usually very soothing and chill for lack of a better word. With songs like “Ripple” and “Box of Rain”, it is hard to connect such peaceful music to the brutality and mayhem displayed in the Wild Bunch.
1. I would say that overall I did like the first section of the movie that we watched. One part that stayed with me was the kids watching scorpions get swarmed by fire ants and slowly die. Eventually killing everything by catching the battleground on fire. It showed how the kids who normally are innocent, were being brutal to the animals and having fun with it. Later then after the gunfight the boys walking around the dead bodies and play fighting/shooting.
ReplyDelete2. On one side you had the bank robbers who were trying to make their money, and on the other side you had the bounty hunters who were there to kill the bank robbers. Throughout the first fight neither side gained very much moral high ground, with the bank robbers executing the staff when they try to flee, and the bounty hunters shooting civilians for sport. So from the fight alone I would not be able to give a definitive answer on who the good and the bad guys are. While the bounty hunters are technically on the laws side, they also caused civilians to die and even shot them themselves. Yet the bank robbers are also led by Pike who from the flashback shown isn't a great man himself. He abandoned his partner to harsh punishment and never came back for him. So while I dont want to pick a side on who has the moral high ground, I think it can vary based on where peoples morals lie.
3. In the photo from Shane it reminded me of the part when Pike helps the woman walk across the street before he goes and commits the bank robbery. This shows how just because Pike is a criminal dosnt mean that he cant be nice to civilians and use his manners. That is what I see in the image, I havent actually seen Shane so I dont know the context of the photo, but it looked like a cowboy being nice to a kid.
1. For the first few minutes of the film I was mostly concentrated on figuring out what was going on, but as the story came together I actually really enjoyed it. I haven’t watched any western movies, but I imagined them as being your standard “bad Indians vs good cowboys” plot. So far this one has more depth than I expected from a western movie.
ReplyDelete2. At this point in the plot, I would say -tentatively- that I think the bounty hunters and Harrigan and Thornton are closer to being the good guys and the Wild Bunch are more of the bad guys. I say this mainly because the bounty hunters, although they contributed to many casualties, are working for the law, and because the Wild Bunch’s main motive seems to be simply for personal profit. However, I don’t think that the question of who is right and who is wrong is ever as simple as that, and I expect that further into the movie we will learn more information about the characters’ backgrounds and the question may become more complicated.
3. The third picture - the one of Shane - stood out to me because in my mind it is the epitome of what a typical western movie was/is. Obviously it relates to The Wild Bunch because it is in the same film genre, but I think it also relates to the conversation we had about the American life and what that was supposed to look like. Here you have all the elements to a typical/ideal American life. The family dog, the older man mentoring the younger boy, a cowboy, and of course the beautiful backdrop of the Wild West.