"We're not gonna get of anybody! We're gonna stick together, just like it used to be. When you side with a man, you stay with him. And if you can't do that, you're like some animal. You're finished! We're finished!"
—Pike
DUTCH. How 'bout us, Pike? You reckon we learned—bein' wrong today?
PIKE. I sure hope to God we did.
TECTOR. That damn railroad you're talkin' about sure as hell ain't a-gettin' no easier.
SYKES. And you boys ain't gettin' any younger either!
PIKE. We got to start thinking beyond our guns. Those days are closin' fast.
We are not in the final act of the movie. Angel—gee, I wonder they named him that?—has just been betrayed by Teresa's mother and then Dutch ("When you side with a man, you stay with him"—until you don't). This leads to the final action taken by our Bunch. The machine gun and grenades they got with the rifles will play a part. So...
1. What to you is either the predominant theme of the film OR, more simply, what it is about? What it's about does not mean what the narrative action is—bad men go to Mexico—but what is the chief concern of the story? If The Great Gatsby, for example, is about a man trying to relive his past to find what he had lost when he lost his girl, then what, presented in a similar way, is The Wild Bunch about? Write at least two sentences and no more than four.
2. We have now more than one group to contend with in the film: The Bunch; the Bounty Hunters; the Railroad who sent Deke and the "egg-sucking peckerwood guttertrash" to kill the Bunch; Angel's village; Mapache and his army. If you judge them by what they value, list them in order from best to worst values, with a sentence that defines each group's most prominent value.
3. What moment from today's viewing still stays with you, now hours later—and why?
4. List The Bunch in order from your favorite to least favorite—and for each, a sentence saying why you placed them in this order.
This is due by 10 tonight. The ending of TWB...you've not seen anything like it, I'm predicting. A preview of tomorrow:
1. The Wild Bunch is about men who have been corrupted by war and desensitized to the brutality of their actions. The Bunch is made up of men working desperately to gain wealth and steer clear of Bounty Hunters and others that attempt to kill them. They do not seem to feel empathy or even react to their actions or the actions of others around them.
ReplyDelete2. 1) Angel’s Village have the best principles as they value community and care for the bunch when they visit the village. 2) The Bunch cares a lot about money and guns and are made up of characters with adorable values (for example Pike values community/ teamwork and Angel is very empathetic and caring about his father). 3) The Bounty hunters values are ranked 3rd because although they acted very violently at times, their actions were much more intentional than other groups who seemed recklessly violent. 4) The railroad’s values are 3rd in the list because they betrayed the Bunch and sent the Bounty hunters to go kill them. 5) Mapache and his army have the worst values because they seem to lack empathy, only value guns and ammunition, and are very reckless.
3. The moment from today’s viewing that still stays with me is the shot of the woman breastfeeding while wearing a bandolier. It was very alarming to see a very young child in such close proximity to a striking symbol of war and violence. Because of how intentional this shot seemed, it appears to suggest that this kind of careless violence will be passed down to the next generation, that it is almost cyclical.
4. 1) Angel is my favorite because he was very concerned about his dead father when he visited his town and seemed to be one of the only members capable of empathy, even though he acted compulsively as he killed his ex-lover. 2) Pike is my second favorite because I really appreciate how he values unity within the bunch and how they need to “stick together”. 3) Dutch, although not the worst of the Bunch, seems very disrespectful and sarcastic at times when it is shockingly inappropriate, for instance when one of their men died on horseback and he sarcastically suggested a funeral with a choir. 4) Lyle is my one of my least favorite members of the Bunch because he is very careless, selfish, and, along with his brother, is very sexually aggressive towards women. 5) Tector is my least favorite character because he seems to just blindly follow the Bunch, oblivious to the effects of their actions.
5. As compared to the scenes in The Wild Bunch, this scene is refreshingly light-hearted, silly, and even funny. I like the playfulness about it. It is hard for me to believe that this movie could be considered the same genre as The Wild Bunch because they seem so strikingly different. It is possible that the reason Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid was more successful was because audiences appreciated the lack of violence and death in that film as compared to that of The Wild Bunch; maybe audiences were more attracted to the light-heartedness - at least of this scene - of Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid because of the Vietnam War that was going on at the time.
1. To me, the predominant theme of the film is the expectation and tension around loyalty. The members appear fairly loyal to each other: The Bunch acknowledges Pike’s comment about loyalty and follow him through the desert, Angel wants to support the people who live in his village, and Mapache and The Bunch hold up their respective ends of their gold for weapons deal. However, some members instead resist this loyalty, as Dutch obviously deserts Angel and the Bounty Hunters reject Deke’s instructions to hold fire.
ReplyDelete2.
....Angel’s village: the people in the village kindly invited the The Bunch members with a comfortable stay and parted with presents; however, this does not mean that they were unconcerned with the lack of food and weapons, as both Angel’s previous love and the man they discuss with in the village reveal this.
....the Bunch: creative in their train takeover/ desert race exploit and (begrudgingly) respectful of Pike’s orders, The Bunch seems relatively respectful in the times when they are not abusing women or killing innocent people.
....the Railroad: if I understood correctly, the Railroad was responsible for the previous arrest of Deke and Pike; though the two men may have deserved punishment, the Railroad men entered the room gun first, just additional members of this violent world.
....Mapache and his army: they obviously have power, and appear to enjoy dispensing it on people if they want to, when they want to; in the same indifferent reaction to death by the Bunch and Bounty Hunters, the commander does not appear to care much about the fact that the mistress was shot and killed, even with her blood covering his body.
....the Bounty Hunters: they are violent even when not commanded to be such; Deke himself admits he’d rather be a member of the Bunch then the successful Bounty Hunters.
3. As many articulated both in the blog yesterday and in class today, the role of children in this film is a bit troubling. I continued to feel this way after what we watched today. Though brief, the camera pans to the young US soldiers who are seated in the train car with the Bounty Hunters. The filmmakers easily could have cast these characters out of a freshman class; they barely even look 14, let alone at least 17. The young boy who served as a courier in Mapache’s army appeared even younger, yet he too was involved in the war. As discussed in class, the children appear to look up to the cowboys around them, and now the soldiers/ commanders as well; the boy who acts as the courier promptly salutes the official when he delivers the telegram. As mentioned in class, the children are no longer naive. I can only imagine the reason for this is that they are involved in or surrounded with war.
4. *I got a lot of them confused, so if the names are not correct, the explanations are in the order I intended. Also, I’m not sure how many members are in the Wild Bunch, so I may have missed someone.
ReplyDelete....Angel: unlike the other members of the Bunch, Angel actually understands that supplying Mapache’s army with the ammunition means supporting his continued militant advances; he cares more for the safety of the people from his village than a pile of gold (which the other men will probably just spend on whisky and prostitutes).
....Pike: his determination after his stirrup brakes, along with his strong belief in loyalty, are traits I appreciate; I especially admire the latter, as Dutch seems to retain 0% of this belief.
....Sykes: as he is able to both make jokes out of the member’s actions actions (re: metal washers instead of gold) and successfully drive the getaway horse-drawn carriage, Sykes is both chastising and instrumental to The Bunch.
....Tector: though I do not appreciate his argumentative attitude, I must commend the results of Tector’s whisky bottle pass.
....Lyle: his overbearing actions with the women in the wine vat have easily secured him second-to-worst.
....Dutch: he not only left Angel at the mercy of Mapache’s army, Dutch explicitly called his fellow comrade a thief; unless he is planning to return and defend Angel, it is inexcusable that he abandoned a member of the Bunch.
5. This scene from Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid presents a laughable rom-com with an admiring, youthful woman, a talented young man, and a fairly slow-paced bull. The aggressive violence of The Wild Bunch is in opposition; when watching the film today, I found myself rooting for the members of The Bunch, hoping that they could secure the train and cross the bridge before the Bounty Hunters and servicemen arrived. I was surprised and upset that I thought this, as I am horrified that The Bunch killed the men on board the train and those who pursued them. However, I am unsure if I actually cared that The Bunch remained victorious or if I just was caught up in the action of the scene. This presents a tiring moral quandry of “am I a bad person if I’m somehow drawn into this scene of the film, or is this only natural” etc…, which is not the case in this scene from Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid; its comedic flirting allows the viewer to enjoy the story fairly mindlessly, which is definitely successful in a movie (Julia Roberts, mid 90’s).
1. The Wild Bunch is a story of Darwinism. Those who are strong, capable, and willing to do anything, even betray their morals, will survive in the long run. An example of this is when Pike tells Angel to either live with the fact that his father is dead and move on, or to stay behind.
ReplyDelete2. From a moral standpoint, I would put the list as follows; Deke and the gutter trash, The bunch, and Mapache. Deke and the gutter trash are chasing convicts with a long history of felonies. The bunch are stealing weapons to help foreign political powers, and are betraying their home country. Mapache is a cruel man who ravages villages for women and power. However, morals aside, I would argue that the list of which group is most likely to survive would be completely flipped. Mapache and his army have vast amounts of powerful weaponry, the bunch has come into a great sum of money, and Deke is left in enemy territory with a bunch of idiots.
3. Seeing Dutch leave Angel behind, when given the opportunity to take him, no questions asked, was heartbreaking, but not surprising. Angel made a decision that none of the bunch wanted to make, but they allowed him to go through with it, because they got to keep his share of the gold.
4. Pike- Pike is my favorite because he is a strong, fair leader who is honest with his men.
Lyle/Tector- I don’t know enough about these two to make a difference between them, but the scene with the wine was pretty amusing.
Dutch- My least favorite because he abandoned Angel.
5. In contrast to the Wild Bunch, this is a very fast-paced scene. There is no dialogue, and in the short span of just a couple minutes, a story unfolds. It is an easy, feel-good scene, and although there is nothing wrong with that, in my eyes, I feel the story of the Wild Bunch is more rewarding. However, it is worth noting that I am adjusted to the fast-paced world we live in today, whereas a viewer in the 1970s would not be adjusted to this new type of cinema.
1.
ReplyDeleteThe predominant theme of the film is the chance of redemption that is fated to fail. The bounty hunters have had a history of violence and crime and after that they become bounty hunters. Being a bounty hunter may not be the most honest job however, they still do serve the law; their fall from grace was inevitable because of their disregard for the innocent people they kill.
2.
1. Angels village- we don’t know a whole lot about them but they were very kind and accepting to the wild bunch so they are first.
2. Next is the bounty hunters- we know that they are only trying to bring the criminals in but they have lost their morals and kill innocent people in the process.
3. The wild bunch- they are painted to be the gun-slinging good guys but non truth they have done some very bad things; they are redeemable characters because of the way they act like brother to each other.
4. Mapache and his army- he was helping out Germany before WWI which is a really bad thing, other than that he has not done something else extremely bad.
3.
Something that is staying with me the most is at the beginning of the movie when the kids burned the scorpions to inflict as much pain on them as they could. The kids are supposed to be the most innocent people ever but even they have been corrupted showing that there is no brighter future ahead.
4.
Pike- he’s my favorite because he’s intelligent, cunning, skilled in combat and just a naturaL leader.
Angel- He’s my second favorite because he made a funny joke letting the other guys have his share of silver which was actually washers, and I also liked him because he cared a lot about his family.
Lyle Gorch- he’s my third favorite because of the scene where they all passed around the bottle but he was the last one and didn’t get any.
Dutch Engstrom- I put him in fourth because there’s not much to him but he is a funny guy.
Tector Gorch- I don’t really know much about him so that’s why he’s last.
5.
The movie Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid was for more successful than the Wild Bunch and a scene that characterizes this gap is the raindrop scene. The raindrop scene contained music and romance while still maintaining western feel to the scene. This probably appealed to a larger audience because of the content and the refreshing light-heartedness. So while both films are remembered for their quality content Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid was more successful because they pleased the audience of their time.
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ReplyDeleteI believe the Wild Bunch breaks down the dichotomy of a complex time period. The film portrays the relationships lawmen and criminals have. They are not all that different, possibly insinuating that they have more in common than most believe.
DeleteAngel’s village-They welcome the men into their village with open arms, and treat them with kindness while knowing their criminal history. This shows how they value relationships and personal connections. Angel’s connection with his father, and the way the village sent off the Bunch reinforces their values. I think the Bunch have some redeeming qualities, because they seem to be more honest with their desires. They need money to live, and are forced to take steep measures to make it happen. Although they have their disagreements, everyone is vocal about their issues and problems get resolved quickly. Deke and the Bounty Hunters-They are absolutely miserable throughout the film. Excluding TC and Coffer, none of the men have a relationship with each other, leading to a group full of hatred and spite. They are on the right side of the law, however, so that is why they are above the railroad and the mapache tribe. Railroad-I admit I don’t know that much about this group; however, they hired the bounty hunters which seems less honorable to me. Hiring someone else to kill someone for you conveys a negative connotation. The Mapache army is last in my opinion, because they are entirely focused on war and destruction. All they value is weaponry, and nearly kill women and children while playing with the machine gun.
The scene where the general is spraying the machine gun sticks with me, because I think it has a lot of similarities with the rest of the film. There is a blatant neglect of care or acknowledgment for others. Excluding Angel’s village, every other group has a moment where they put others in danger in order to promote their values and ideals.
Sykes- He is my favorite because his comic relief adds a completely new dimension to the Bunch. Pike-Pike’s value for loyalty and commitment to one another is what stands out to me. He sticks up for sykes multiple times and helps galvanize the Bunch when they are in need. Angel-I appreciate Angel’s care for his family, and how he chooses their prosperity over gold; however, he makes too many tactical errors for me to like him. There are times when he ends up doing more harm than good. I’m putting Tector and Lyle together, because they play a similar role to me. They both have moments where they offer comic relief, but they both give Pike too much trouble for me to like them. Dutch is last purely because of how he stranded Angel.
The scene from Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid seems so fake to me. Everyone is laughing and smiling, even when he’s facing down a bull. It makes sense that it was successful, because people don’t enjoy seeing the flaws of their society. The WIld Bunch portrays a much more realistic image of the world. Prostitutes, murder, and betrayal are all real aspects that add an honesty to the film, but can cause some people to look to something that depicts a brighter, happier image.
1) The Wild Bunch is essentially about a group of men that are trying to get by in the world. Apart from Angel we don’t really get much information about their outside lives or family. It seems like the only people they really have are themselves. So, in that case they have to stick with each other for company, they depend on each other.
ReplyDelete2) lAngels Village: Their priority seem to the the community and the overall well being of it.
The Bunch seem to care about their own little group, and they look out for each other.
The railroad was just following orders, I don’t think we’re really given much to judge on for them.
Mapache and his army seem to only protect their own butts and don’t really seem to care for others much unless they have something to gain. They also don’t have. a problem attacking and invading other towns.
The Bounty Hunters are also on the same level as the Mapache. They are only focused on their mission catching the bunch. And they don’t care what casualties they have to face to achieve it. And are only really gaining if they get the bounty.
3) The very last scene we watched still has me a little shocked. I didn’t really think Dutch would just leave Angel like that to the Mapaches I didn’t really see them care for much, but they all seemed genuinely happy when they were hanging out. I thought they valued their friendship at least a little bit. So seeing him just leave Angel to the enemy was the biggest scene of betrayal. And i can only imagine how Angel must’ve felt.
4) Angel is definitely one of my favorites. He’s the only one in the bunch we actually get to see the “soft” side to. We also get to see how emotional he gets about the people he cares about, And we also see this angry side of him which shows just how much he cares.
I feel some sort of pity for Lyle so m putting him high up here as well. I feel like they really leave him out of things. For example, during the scene where they were all enjoying themselves I feel like they were leaving him out.
Pike : Seems to be the “leader” as in he’s the person who motivates the guys. He may not do it well, but he does nonetheless.
5) In the clip on the movie that we are shown, it shows something that would maybe be in a modern movie. This makes the movie seem more like-able, and almost as rom com sort of vibe. We see what seems to be a happy couple. A funny, silly, like-able man. And a beautiful young looking women, that seems to have a charm to her. This may have appealed to more people. Maybe the violence in The Wild Bunch may hav emit appealed to women, but this seems like it might. This is all assumptions though so I’m not certain.
1. This movie is likely a commentary about the Vietnam War, seeing as it was released it 1969. The western genre provided a surprisingly great setting to comment about the brutality of war. We see the problems of war and fighting, and the constant shooting, which often involves innocent bystanders and children, which is a reflection of Vietnam.
ReplyDelete2. Angel’s village is portrayed as a peaceful island in a sea of violence. The few scenes of happiness, and the most peaceful scenes, are in this village.
The Bunch is probably the lesser of the other evils, in that they partake in killing many people all the time, but are somehow not as bad as the other groups.
I am not sure that values of the railroad group, but they seem to be characterized by the fact that they were hired to do something. This is not great, because it is murder, but somehow I find them better than other groups.
I don’t find Mapache and his army to be the absolute worst of these groups. While they do value weapons very highly, I understand that they need to have the same weapons as other groups in order to protect themselves. (I may be wrong, but...) I don’t believe that Mapache and his army have killed as many innocent people (that we know of).
The Bounty Hunters, in theory, are saving society from criminals. This is ridiculous considering they kill innocent bystanders dar too often, and could probably be considered criminals also.
3. A scene that stuck out to me was when Dutch betrays Angel and leaves him with the Mapache army. I am very confused by this, however I suspect that Dutch actually plans on coming back for him or saving him in some way.
4. I would feel much more comfortable ranking these men if I could remember who did exactly what, because I am likely forgetting some of their murders
Pike - Pike is the leader of the group, and he values loyalty. I don’t remember anything extremely vile he did, more so than the other men.
Angel - While Angel was one of the most likeable members of The Bunch for a while, I cannot get over the scene where he shoots his ex-girlfriend. This obviously would make me hate a character normally, but it seems that killing people for any reason is the norm in this film.
Dutch - Dutch was a mostly good character until he left Angel behind with the Mapaches. Lyle - Lyle is a boring character in my opinion, so the only strong memory I have of him was with the women and the wine. This scene was clearly gross and uncomfortable.
5. This scene from Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid is in contrast to The Wild Bunch because of the playful, light, and cheery attitude. The Wild Bunch is clearly more heavy, gruesome, and violent. This scene is pretty much stress free and simple to watch. It is likely that this was more popular than The Wild Bunch because people of the time had become tired of the constant violence of western movies that were prominent in years before, and also the violence and suffering of Vietnam.
1. What to you is either the predominant theme of the film OR, more simply, what it is about? What it's about does not mean what the narrative action is—bad men go to Mexico—but what is the chief concern of the story? If The Great Gatsby, for example, is about a man trying to relive his past to find what he had lost when he lost his girl, then what, presented in a similar way, is The Wild Bunch about? Write at least two sentences and no more than four.
ReplyDeleteThe predominant theme of the film is that sticking together is difficult when you’re on the wrong side of the law. Thornton is forced to hunt down the Wild Bunch and Angel is left behind for stealing — proof that the characters have trouble staying together while outlaws.
2. We have now more than one group to contend with in the film: The Bunch; the Bounty Hunters; the Railroad who sent Deke and the "egg-sucking peckerwood guttertrash" to kill the Bunch; Angel's village; Mapache and his army. If you judge them by what they value, list them in order from best to worst values, with a sentence that defines each group's most prominent value.
Angel’s Village — This group values family and togetherness.
The Bunch — This group values the money they get but also (At least sort of) togetherness and unity.
The Bounty Hunters — This group values money and material items.
Mapache & army — This group values power.
Gutter Trash — This group also values material items.
3. What moment from today's viewing still stays with you, now hours later—and why?
Angel’s lover’s death sticks with me because it shows that people put things like a life of comfort over starvation even when it’s all they’ve known. And Angel’s reaction to this betrayal is really extra. Killing his lover? That’s extreme.
4. List The Bunch in order from your favorite to least favorite—and for each, a sentence saying why you placed them in this order.
Pike — He’s the leader and generally a good guy.
Dutch — He’s kind of funny and helps Pike, understanding his reasoning.
Angel — He’s got loose morals but can sort of understand right and wrong. He’s still a child, though, so he has some redeeming qualities.
Lyle — He’s a fairly boring character. The wine was a bit overkill.
5. The scene from BC & The Sundance Kid contrasts in mood. The Wild Bunch is violent and well, wild, unlike the other movie’s lighter, more romantic atmosphere. Instead of the stress of running from the law, the scene is simple. This was most likely more popular because people wanted romance and a happier ending than the gruesome violence common in early western films.
1. I would say that the most predominant theme in The Wild Bunch is obviously violence. The Wild bunch, the bounty hunters and the Mexican army use violence as a way to get by in the world as well as a source of entertainment. For example when Angel is being dragged around the back of the car riding through the town and the soliders stare on and laugh. Another example would be Dutch laughing throughout fights and at the thought of going to fight.
ReplyDelete2. #1. The best group would definitely be Angels village because they seem to have family values and be nice people.
#2. The Bunch, although they dont seem to care for civilian lives during fighting I would say that at lesat Pike is a half decent person aside from his job choice.
#3. The bounty hunters, they are doing their job and trying to get rich, they are pretty horrible people, but they dont have the power to kill as many as the Mexican Army does.
#4. Mapache and his army are the worst because they already have money and they actively try to kill people who dont like them or dont wish to be a part of them.
A scene that stuck with me was when Dutch left Angel with the army. I don't think that Dutch is some horrible person because he does this though. Dutch was put into a very uncomfortable situation and if he demanded to have Angel back he couldve died as well meaning that nobody couldve come back to even try and rescue Angel.
Pike- He the good leader
Dutch- because hes kinda funny and is similar to Pike
Angel- Has morals
Lyle- the better of the brothers.
1. The Wild Bunch is about the power dynamics/ politics between a group of outlaws, the railroad and bounty hunters trying to catch them, and the military leader Mapache. It is also about the impact that these groups have on the surrounding civilians, and violence the communities endure because of them.
ReplyDelete2. Angel’s Village, their main value seems to be about hospitality and wellbeing of their community. The Wild Bunch, who care about profit, but also about each other and having a good time. The Railroad, who cares about their business and upholding the law, but act immorally in order to do so. The Bounty Hunters, who care about carrying out and getting payed for the job they are hired to do. Mapache and army, who care about political control and power.
3. The moment that still stands out to me is when The Bunch is riding down the dune and their horses all end up stumbling and falling down. It stood out to me because of how cruel the men were as they yelled and pulled at the horses to get back up. This moment is just an example of how insensitive the men can be to those around them, and often fail to see how their own endeavors can harm others. They see it as the horses fault for falling, not theirs for leading them down the hill.
4. Angel is my favorite because he seems the most compassionate, and comes off to me as the most “human” out of The Bunch. Next is Pike, because I think he can also show compassion for his fellow members, and I think he has good leadership skills. Next is Dutch, because I think he is able to have thoughtful and helpful conversations with Pike, and has more presence in the group than the Gorch brothers. Next is Tector, because I don’t feel he really has much personality in the group. Least is Lyle, because he doesn’t seem to care much about the group, and sometimes starts trouble with other members.
5. Compared to The Wild Bunch, this scene is much less violent, more fast paced, and less confusing plot wise. When watching The Wild Bunch, you really have to pay attention to all the small nuances that are happening between the characters - not to mention all the violence - and I could see how viewers may give up on the movie while watching it. Not everyone wants a movie that requires you to think about things while watching, and The Wild Bunch certainly does.